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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2330
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 12:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:I love how highsec players are totally willing to make highsec worse if they think it'll finally make goons mad somehow
How on earth does having a genuinely dynamic system of wardec escalation (ie Inferno 1.0) make hisec "worse" ... that comment you made makes no actual sense.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2330
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 12:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:So I was talking with the other highsec war goons and we both agrees that we don't care about the changes either way.
Yeah right, a couple of years ago the same thing happened to me. The inland revenue made an error and sent me -ú6000 in refunded overpaid tax. I was like "I don't care, doesn't mean anything to me, I can live with it or without it (goes and buys a new computer, collection of airsoft guns, 100 books off amazon etc etc.)
Unfortunately six months later they wrote to me again and said their mistake had been a mistake and they wanted the money back. I tried to explain how I didn't care about the money so much that I'd spent it all but the unkind lady at the tax offense said she'd send me to the tower of london unless I paid back every penny
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2333
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 23:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:The allies mechanism is broken, look at it like this, goons could easily wardec done high sec corp and the entire cfc could pile in on that. In fact goons could wardec allot of people and get there coalition with 10's of thousands of members to become allies and completely destroy and high sec entity they wished. It works both ways.
Hardly - the 1.1 wardec system is massively stacked in favour of numbers pressed within the same alliance structure. Its "balanced" on numbers of discrete entities rather than numbers of pilots - hence the problem you allude to is only made worse because the CFC side of the wardec (defensively) only ever needs a couple of allies to add 15000 pilots to the dec.
Or to illustrate.
9000 people wardec 100. It costs them 50m per week. For the same money the defender can count on themselves, one free ally, 2nd ally for 10 per 2 weeks, 3rd ally for 20 per 2 weeks, 3rd ally for 40 per 2 weeks - and a 4th ally would mean they are paying more than the attacker is.
Whereas.
100 people wardec 9000. It costs them 500m per week. For the same money the defender can count on themselves, one free ally, 2nd ally for 10 per 2 weeks, 3rd ally for 20 per 2 weeks, 3rd ally for 40 per 2 weeks, 4th ally for 80 per 2 weeks, 5th ally for 160 per 2 weeks, 6th ally for 320 per 2 weeks, 7th ally for 640 per 2 weeks (would mean they are now paying more attacker.
Put simply the system means that a giant alliance can have twice as many allies as a smaller alliance before losing out on the financial balance of wardec costs. (or the bigger you are the more free allies you are allowed without paying more than the attacker).
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2334
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 00:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:wait waht?
I ******* love the new system, whats this about changing it? linky plx?
I showed 3 friends with lapsed accounts the new system and they all talked about returning, please dont tell me it is already getting diluted?
this feels so right: a large group of disconnected groups uniting to fight a common enemy! This is bad for Eve how exactly?
This is how new alliances form - this is a possible escape from stagnation.
stick with what you have CCP it is fine as it is!
It's basically getting nerfed to oblivion in just about every way you can imagine.
1. ally contracts restricted to 2 week slots with no auto renewal 2. no allies in mutual wars. 3. exponential cost for every ally that joins a war beyond the first. 10,20,40,80,160,320 etc ... 44 allies now costs something ridiculous like 20 sextillion or something.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2335
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 00:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alia Gon'die wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Rellik B00n wrote:wait waht?
I ******* love the new system, whats this about changing it? linky plx?
I showed 3 friends with lapsed accounts the new system and they all talked about returning, please dont tell me it is already getting diluted?
this feels so right: a large group of disconnected groups uniting to fight a common enemy! This is bad for Eve how exactly?
This is how new alliances form - this is a possible escape from stagnation.
stick with what you have CCP it is fine as it is! It's basically getting nerfed to oblivion in just about every way you can imagine. 1. ally contracts restricted to 2 week slots with no auto renewal 2. no allies in mutual wars. 3. exponential cost for every ally that joins a war beyond the first. 10,20,40,80,160,320 etc ... 44 allies now costs something ridiculous like 20 sextillion or something. It sounds like it would be just so much cheaper to form an alliance. By the way... So how did your "Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free!" thing work out for you? Is it going good? Did you get the results you wanted or are you going to have to formulate another test?
Pretty successful test all in all. People seemed pretty happy to sign up to shoot goons, the wardec will end with a good level of success come inferno 1.1 (when all the allies get sent home) so :shrug: what else can you say.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2335
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 00:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: 3. exponential cost for every ally that joins a war beyond the first. 10,20,40,80,160,320 etc ... 44 allies now costs something ridiculous like 20 sextillion or something.
43,980,465,111,040 ISK for 44 allies. But it does not, as far as I am aware, limit the number of people each of those allies has in their corp. So you could have 44 allies, each with 6301 members in them, for a grand total of 277,244 people. When you look at it that way, the cost doesn't seem as ludicrous. Going through all the ally notifications, and there are just a ridiculous amount under 10 member corporations. Lots of 3 member ones, which I bet are all characters on 1 person's account. Again, I really don't care how the mechanics of wardecs work. Its kind of cool that Jade found a way to push the envelope on the current system, but the end result was just a billion personal tax dodging corps getting what amounts to a vanity wardec. They can say they went to war with the CFC for no effort or cost. It would be cool if it really did get disparate groups to work together, but then again, those groups could just form an alliance and wardec as a single entity. But putting together an effective alliance is player made content, and we know most highsec dwellers have trouble grasping that idea.
Problem is there is no effective way to secure an alliance of disparate groups against infiltration and alliance disband which is surely what would happen. Until CCP spend some programming effort giving us configuration options on how we want to run alliances to specific purposes (for example a hisec mass wardec alliance would not be run or configured to work the same way as a tight 4-5 corp lowsec pirate alliance) then its not going to be a very feasible project.
For example, if we wanted to move our current 46 allies over into a single alliance shell that could join the goon wardec for free (assuming for a moment that we don't count the 6-7 actual alliances that are allied) then we'd need to create an additional 46 alt corps (for a total of 92 member corps) simply to ensure that the alliance is not disbanded by infiltration. Since each alt corp needs at least one account in it to stay functional and click the support button thats a minimum of 16 accounts devoted purely to anti infiltration technqiues and is quite a ridiculous length to go to simply to continue what we have already.
The alliance structure would cost 1b isk to set up, 16 trial accounts full of alts, and 200m a month maintenance fee. With an addi one account full of alts per 3 additional members (+6 maintenance per month.)
Very quickly running this kind of thing would become a full time job which is quite the disproportionate :effort: to go to when opposing a dec of 50m per week and a couple of dozen random stealth bombers at trade hubs.
As always with the type of grand vision suggested by the poster above - Eve makes things far more complicated than it needs to be.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2335
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 01:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
David Cedarbridge wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Problem is there is no effective way to secure an alliance of disparate groups against infiltration and alliance disband which is surely what would happen. Until CCP spend some programming effort giving us configuration options on how we want to run alliances to specific purposes (for example a hisec mass wardec alliance would not be run or configured to work the same way as a tight 4-5 corp lowsec pirate alliance) then its not going to be a very feasible project.
For example, if we wanted to move our current 46 allies over into a single alliance shell that could join the goon wardec for free (assuming for a moment that we don't count the 6-7 actual alliances that are allied) then we'd need to create an additional 46 alt corps (for a total of 92 member corps) simply to ensure that the alliance is not disbanded by infiltration. Since each alt corp needs at least one account in it to stay functional and click the support button thats a minimum of 16 accounts devoted purely to anti infiltration technqiues and is quite a ridiculous length to go to simply to continue what we have already.
The alliance structure would cost 1b isk to set up, 16 trial accounts full of alts, and 200m a month maintenance fee. With an additional one account full of alts per 3 additional members (+6 maintenance per month.)
Very quickly running this kind of thing would become a full time job which is quite the disproportionate :effort: to go to when opposing a dec of 50m per week and a couple of dozen random stealth bombers at trade hubs.
As always with the type of grand vision suggested by the poster above - Eve makes things far more complicated than it needs to be.
I've seen you posting this around a lot as if it were some sort of excuse. If you can't figure out how to keep your alliance secure enough to function and can't trust the people you seem to want fighting with you then you aren't really "allies." This all smacks of more needing CCP to hold your hand through things that real alliances have been able to pull off for years.
Well obviously hisec trade hub raider friends are not going to be as tight as formal alliance members in some nullsec pact that are only brought into the game from 3rd party forums are they?
Really. The whole point of the Inferno 1.0 wardec allies system seemed to be to provide a quicker and neater way of growing dynamic war situations in the sandbox.
But sure, you can always trot out the "well you should be more like us!" reponse - but the reality is quite a few people don't want to the play the game precisely how the nullsec blocs are playing the game - they like their independence.
And lets remember another reality here. This is not hisec wardec people asking for a change in the in game to their benefit.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2335
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 01:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
David Cedarbridge wrote: By "more like us", you mean actual trustworthy allies to eachother and not just opportunistic bandwagoners right? Oh wait, highsec. Right.
Well I actually mean recruiting one's membership from a 3rd party paid forum service. But sneer as you like at bandwagoners - isn't that exactly what any pilot joining the largest nullsec bloc is ... a bandwagoneer in effect?
David Cedarbridge wrote: I'm not really sure how making just about every initated wardec unwinnable for any corp or alliance of equal or lesser size than the defender makes the game "dynamic". There's a lot of buzzwords and begging the question in here. I'm sure you'd like to explain in a way that actually makes sense.
My proposed change to the wardec system resolves the issue you allude to.
David Cedarbridge wrote: Oh really? You have the CCP email/evemail transcripts and the CSM minutes to show who is asking for these changes or are you still on some kick about how Goons are totally afraid of you and your super scary allies list?
Such things are not to be discussed on these forums anymore.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2335
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 02:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Jade less words more of this: CCP Soundwave wrote:The other thing is that war dec prices are determined by the value you get from them. If you want to go to war with someone, a higher number of potential targets should be more expensive. If you're a smaller alliance, this makes you a less attractive target, unless you've made someone angry in which case you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created.
The quote doesn't really make sense though. Otherwise why doesn't the wardec cost ramp up when the defender adds more allies (thus targets) into the wardec? Also, why does the wardec cost against goons (for example) calculate 500m per week for (9000 members) when by admission of most of their members there are no more than 90 or so active in empire (and thus reachable through the hisec wardec system).
As for the "social repecurssions" - well doesn't that cut both ways? If an alliance has made itself very unpopular in eve there are litterally dozens of hisec trade hub raiders who'd like to join wars against them but are now prevented from doing so by the exponentially-increasing wardec ally multiplier (which is a bit silly because it increases much further and more extremely than simply layering on additional wardecs would.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2335
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 02:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alia Gon'die wrote:La Nariz wrote:Jade less words more of this: CCP Soundwave wrote:The other thing is that war dec prices are determined by the value you get from them. If you want to go to war with someone, a higher number of potential targets should be more expensive. If you're a smaller alliance, this makes you a less attractive target, unless you've made someone angry in which case you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created. but the more words he says the more we get to shoot at him, right?
I don't really think you get to shoot at anyone from an npc corp.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2335
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 02:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alia Gon'die wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Alia Gon'die wrote:La Nariz wrote:Jade less words more of this: CCP Soundwave wrote:The other thing is that war dec prices are determined by the value you get from them. If you want to go to war with someone, a higher number of potential targets should be more expensive. If you're a smaller alliance, this makes you a less attractive target, unless you've made someone angry in which case you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created. but the more words he says the more we get to shoot at him, right? I don't really think you get to shoot at anyone from an npc corp. Hurr hurr, you're a clever one Jade. How's tricks?
Tell me who your main is and I'll tell you.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2335
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 02:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alia Gon'die wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Alia Gon'die wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:
I don't really think you get to shoot at anyone from an npc corp.
Hurr hurr, you're a clever one Jade. How's tricks? Tell me who your main is and I'll tell you. Does it matter? Either you're involved in a war with my main or you aren't. In other words, you don't get to see my birth certificate. Also, I'm pretty sure you don't get many tricks these days. :3
I hope that wouldn't be an attempt at a rumour post you are trying there
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 14:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: And lets remember another reality here. This is not hisec wardec people asking for a change in the in game to their benefit.
No, that is not a reality. That is just made up, and possibly a "rumor". The reality is that wardecs have never been a nullsec issue. At best they are a joke, at worst they are irrelevant. The only people that are going to have their game effected by wardecs, and would have any reason to complain, are highsec people.
And yet nobody in the hisec war coalitions has been complaining AT ALL.
Here's the thing.
The CSM (apart from Keldun of Eve Uni) opposed these changes. There is a good overview of their response in the Crossing Zebra's podcast where the Noir guy expresses his frustration at the way he felt the CSM had been ignored and the Wardec team was not really listening to feedback.
Crossing Zebra's podcast ep 6 listen from 44mins
Keldun btw has negotiated access to Test alliance space previously, so maybe that has something to do with his views who knows (test alliance being the other really big loser from the Inferno 1.0 wardec changes and getting literally FARMED by pretty much everyone in Hisec on the Honda Accord war).
And since the reveal on the 1.1 changes. Nobody really except nullsec poeple have celebrated the detail uncritically.
You are being pretty deceitful to move the goalposts again and use the phrase "The only people that are going to have their game effected by wardecs, and would have any reason to complain, are highsec people" because the only hisec people who were getting involved in these wars were people who voluntarily joined allied coalitions (which they obviously enjoyed) or the objects of the "griefing wardecs" themselves who obviously have no choice about it either in 1.0 or 1.1
Your arguement kind of falls flat on its face.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 14:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
David Cedarbridge wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:David Cedarbridge wrote:So wait, changing a mechanic that functionally makes declaring war for any alliance smaller than GSF impossible to win is a sign that the devs favor GSF?
Are you guys really that dense? As it stands now, any 5 man corp declaring war on another 5 man corp is instantly blobbed by "allies" (read: people who just want more things to shoot and have no stake with their other "allies."
I thought you pubbies were against blobbing? Interestingly I have personal experience of this. I got war dec'd last week by a 50 man alliance, and within 3 days I had amassed 243 people spread over 8 corps as allies, most of whom joined for zero cost. While I am obviously happy to have a large amount of allies, this does seem stupidly unbalanced and is a perfect example of why it needs changing. Hey Jade. Look at this post. I did your work for you. No need to thank me.
Yeah which is precisely the issue the proposal I widely circulated would resolve in a far more elegant solution than the clumsy 1.1 changes.
With the proposal I make - the concord escalation fee would only kick in when the defending coalition IS (or has increased to be by adding allies) beyond the size of the attacker. Hence the purpose of the 1.1 (escalation charge) for protecting small attackers from ridiculous dogpiles would remain intact, while the defense option for smaller defenders facing massive attackers would also remain intact.
Thanks in fact for providing yet another example of how its possible to resolve problems in the wardec system without cutting one half of the community to pieces in the interest of the other.
Some game mechanics can be improved for everyone.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 14:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:I'm sad about these changes because our JF loss mails are ******* hilarious.
I wish there was a "Declare war on New Eden button" where we could just make all pilots hostile all the time. NO ONE IS SAFE!
Today the closest thing to such a button is "declare on Star Fraction/Honda Accord" and you'll end up at war with every pilot who wants to take a shot at you in New Eden hisec.
Tomorrow the button is being removed.
Perhaps you should complain to Mittani?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 14:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think you are a bit confused about certain aspects of the discussion Cutter.
Cutter Isaacson wrote: Funny, the only people I see complaining about the upcoming changes to the system ARE high sec dwellers.
Well yes, because the 1.1 changes are bad. But the previous quote references the mention that said hisec dwelling wardec fighters were not complaining about 1.0. There is the world of difference between these two patches - which one you are complaining about speaks volumes for which camp you are in!
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Just because a change happens to possibly benefit null sec alliances, and lets not pretend that Goonswarm are the only null sec alliance, does not mean that they had anything to do with the changes.
Yes thats true, but then again it also doesn't mean they didn't. Obviously there is a lot we don't know happens behind the scenes. But in the lengthy Eve News article I wrote a few days ago I lay all this stuff at the feet of fanboyism as much as any kind of specific corruption but thats by the by. The reality is that these changes DO benefit the big guys and if you want to debate that I can certainly show specifc cases of how they benefit down to numbers in ISK.
Cutter Isaacson wrote:The only people complaining are smaller high sec corps who want to be able to war dec massive alliances, and then bring in infinite numbers of allies for zero cost, thus bypassing the effort and cost needed to form and maintain a cohesive counter alliance.
That simply isn't true. You cannot bring allies when you make an offensive dec. In part the allies for defensive purposes were a sop thrown at the notion of "balance" in the first place because with Inferno 1.0 the cost to dec a large alliance had risen by 10x anyway. The argument was "thats okay because now people can better defend themselves against the large alliances with the wardec ally system". Now that is being taken away from us more or less, and the increased price to dec large alliances remains.
Its simply a very bad patch and I don't think ANYONE sensible is defending it really.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 14:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote: Comments like these are precisely why you are not going to find too many people taking you seriously, and those that do are wearing more tinfoil than you, are probably only semi-literate and have issues with controlling basic bodily functions. If you want anyone to take you seriously you are going to need to leave your excruciatingly clear prejudices at the door, they serve only to drown any decent point you may ever attempt to make in a sea of crap.
Why (in your eyes) is it wrong to suggest that a goon pilot who is actually enjoying 1.0 Inferno wardec rules should consider complaining to his CEO (who can then presumably forward the complaints to CSM/CCP whoever he has in his contact list/twitter network) to protest the ruining of that individual's specific "fun" in the 1.1 patch?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 14:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:Dear Jade Constantine,
You have 80 kills so far in the month of June according to Eve-Kills. None of those are against Goons, or TEST. Why do you even give a ****? It's not like you're fighting us.
SIgned, Me
A better question for you to consider is why am I (as the object of a Mittani's ministry of love special griefing contract ) ABLE to score 80 kills in the month of June (in lowsec no less) without needing to kill a single GOON/TEST pilot in order to go about my business in the Amarr/Minmatar FW conflict zone.
I'll give you a hint. I've seen 3 GOONS total. The first 2 fled system the moment I switched into a gank tornado to blast their bombers to bits. The 3rd fired a torp at me but spammed escape warp so quickly his weapon didn't even detonate in his haste to leave the field.
The reality is that the Goons of the ministry of love are more terrified of mockery and personal consequences they would face on losing a ship to me than they have a desire to actually fight. Hence they run back to empire and get farmed by our many allies.
When you make a wardec against an entity its your job to go find that entity and try to stop them doing what they want to do.
I'm playing faction warfare and making a fortune from kills/complexing/missioning (8.7b so far while this wardec has been running) Surely its your job to stop me.
Otherwise your wardec (like your leader) is going to look pretty foolish.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:Dear Jade Constantine,
You have 80 kills so far in the month of June according to Eve-Kills. None of those are against Goons, or TEST. Why do you even give a ****? It's not like you're fighting us.
SIgned, Me A better question for you to consider is why am I (as the object of a Mittani's ministry of love special griefing contract ) ABLE to score 80 kills in the month of June (in lowsec no less) without needing to kill a single GOON/TEST pilot in order to go about my business in the Amarr/Minmatar FW conflict zone. I'll give you a hint. I've seen 3 GOONS total. The first 2 fled system the moment I switched into a gank tornado to blast their bombers to bits. The 3rd fired a torp at me but spammed escape warp so quickly his weapon didn't even detonate in his haste to leave the field. The reality is that the Goons of the ministry of love are more terrified of mockery and personal consequences they would face on losing a ship to me than they have a desire to actually fight. Hence they run back to empire and get farmed by our many allies. When you make a wardec against an entity its your job to go find that entity and try to stop them doing what they want to do. I'm playing faction warfare and making a fortune from kills/complexing/missioning (8.7b so far while this wardec has been running) Surely its your job to stop me. Otherwise your wardec (like your leader) is going to look pretty foolish. You made it mutual so I guess you have a vested interest in us as well. Maybe you should stop leeching free allies, build an alliance worth a **** and come to VFK. Or stop hiding in lowsec, when the whole point of a war, is to fight in high sec. Actually yeah, let's go with that. Also, I'd rather camp EC- then come find you because :effort:
I made it mutual purely so I could prevent goonswarm :accidently: forgetting to pay the wardec fee and escaping all consequence for a declaration they were losing. I notice you don't reply to any of the specifics of the quoted post by the way.
Its quite comical you accuse me of "hiding" in lowsec btw (where ANYONE can shoot ANYONE) if they are prepared to pay the consequences.
Lets repeat it one more time for you. Before the Mittani's dec I was in lowsec fighting for the Matari faction and pvp'ing against the 24th Crusade. During Mittani's dec I was in lowsec fighting for the Matari faction and pvp'ing against the 24th Crusade, in the immediate future I'm going to be in lowsec fighting for the Matari faction and pv['ing against the 24th Crusade. I've lived in lowsec for most of the last five years. If you'd have done even the slightest checking of killboards histories you might have seen this in advance.
I'm not in 0.0 because I consider the 0.0 game is utterly broken turgid NAP fest and boring in ways its scarcely possible to believe.The only thing that is likely to get me to come to 0.0 again is to raid alliance assets as they involve themselves in planetary ring mining (of moon minerals) if and when that change makes it into the game. But CCP Soundwave just appeared to announce a delay of that feature unfortunately so you guys have a bit longer to sit on your behinds sucking wealth out of static resources while NAPPED to the majority of 0.0 :shrug:
TLDR ... when CCP makes 0.0 a dynamic environment with vulnerable resource extraction systems then I'll be happy to come and blow up your belt-miners with cloaking terror campaigns and black ops hotdrops.
Until then I'm playing the part of the game that actually works properly and delivers enjoyable small unit PVP.
And if you don't like that - well, I guess you'd better come do something about it.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote: Oh dear, I really need to explain? Ok. For the entire time you have been discussing the changes to the wardec system, the greater percentage of that time has actually been spent blaming Goonswarm for said changes.
That isn't true in any way shape or form. I'd challenge you to go off and perform a complete textual analysis of the threads in question but I'm guessing you aren't quite credulous enough to actually do it.
If you want to know who I blame for the bad changes its the CCP developers who had responsibility to overhaul the wardec system. Obviously since its their job. I don't attack these guys personally because thats simply bad argumentation - but I do challenge their arguments and conclusions which I believe are poorly made and frankly - well, inconclusive. And I'm hardly alone in that position, the huge majority of feedback to these changes is negative. Don't believe me go and count up posts in the threads in question.
Not even the merc community reps (who are supposed to be boosted by this 1.1 change) are convinced it'll work in the slightest.
I have said these changes do nothing but boost giant alliances and provide them unreasonable protection against wardecs while stopping people from effectively countering the wardecs they themselves make. I stand by that position and I challenge anyone to debate the facts implicit in that assessment.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote: What consequence? Losing a mentally challenged JF pilot here and there? Losing an entire fleet of bombers? I think you overestimate how much we care about dying. You sure like the word consequence.
Well the greatest Consequence is probably your leader knuckleposting rage tweets and being held up to mockery by the Eve blogging community truth be told. But Psychological warfare is still warfare end of the day. The one thing that the largest alliance in the game cannot bear to happen is for it to be laughed at by "pubbies."
Thats happened.
Ergo,
Well, we win.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote: Jade, just because you have a decent vocabulary to hide behind, do not make the mistake of thinking that people are stupid. You even made a post in the CCL thread at the top of GD that was a blatant attack on Goonswarm, implying that if any of their members were to be hired as moderators, that they should be more carefully monitored than anyone else.
You sure made a lot of assumptions out of the post I made there. I asked for a routine stocktake of alliances represented in the volunteer moderation team. Just so eve as a whole might feel happy to know that there was an even spread and one entity in particular was not dominating.
Cutter Isaacson wrote:You asked for the names and affiliations of said moderators to be made public, for no other reason than your personal bias toward one particular group. The GM responding made it quite clear that this would NEVER happen and clarified the rules surrounding moderators for you.
I most certainly did not ask for people's names to be made public, you are just making that up now!
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote: What consequence? Losing a mentally challenged JF pilot here and there? Losing an entire fleet of bombers? I think you overestimate how much we care about dying. You sure like the word consequence.
Well the greatest Consequence is probably your leader knuckleposting rage tweets and being held up to mockery by the Eve blogging community truth be told. But Psychological warfare is still warfare end of the day. The one thing that the largest alliance in the game cannot bear to happen is for it to be laughed at by "pubbies." Thats happened. Ergo, Well, we win. Jade Constantine wrote: I notice you don't reply to any of the specifics of the quoted post by the way.
Ummmm, you quoted me accusing you of not replying to any specifics of the quoted post - then quoted me replying to the only specific of the quoted post. Are you new to this whole forum debate thing?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ranger 1 Putting a cap on the cost of war decing a large alliance works in favor of those that want to harrass them. It will be expensive enough to weed out the riff raff, but enable groups that have at least a moderately lucurative organization to do so without too much difficulty... at least for the short term. [/quote wrote:
Previous to Inferno 1.0 the default was 50m per week. Post Inferno 1.0 it was 500m + now it is 500m. It still represents a tenfold increase in the cost of declaring war against a large alliance.
[quote=Ranger 1 Forcing you to think about who you want to be on "your side" as the defender... to chose wisely whom bring into it so that you get the most bang for your buck... to actually NEED to consider paying the price of a competent merc corp if you actually want to fight back effectively... these are not bad things for EVE or "the little guy" for that matter.
Without radical improvement in the actual wardec mechanics (ie win conditions, attacker consequences, ways of tracking the result) there is no point to having mercenaries in a defensive war because they can only involve themselves in 2 week random stints and can do nothing to make the attacker actually lose. If the defender does actually pay a large amount of money to a merc for a defensive war the the attacker can score a "victory" simply by docking up or logging off or waiting out the 2 week period then continuing again.
Point is there is nothing a merc can really do to oppose the incoming wardec. This is why in eve as a whole over the last five years the merc profession has become something that does specialized short order contract work rather than joining in on hisec wars. You hire mercs to blow up or defend a POS, you hire mercs to give you security for a big logistics move perhaps, you hire mercs to clear a system of enemy Customs offices. These are discrete jobs that can be judged on succeed/fail terms and can be paid for (usually wardec fee + bonus) if they are accomplished.
This 1.1 change assumption that people are suddenly going to start hiring professional mercs for billions into defensive wardecs to try to "win" wars is just nonsense and vapour. There aren't more than a handful of professional merc corp/alliances in the game at this point and none of them are capable of doing enough damage to a large alliance that said alliiance would remove a "griefing dec" from a particular target. It just isn't going to happen.
The reason why Privateers, Ophanage and every other trade-hub raiding corp work for cost is that they have fun playing the game that way and they appreciate that nobody is going to pay them to "have fun". The quid pro quo for those guys was always "pay us the cost of the dec and we'll dec." This will remain the defacto in 1.1.
Only change is that now this kind of corp (and the mercs) will need to pay to gain access to defensive ally slots to offset the increased concord charge (increased from zero to X). It will make a lot of sense for resting mercs to pay us (for example) 20,40,80,160,320 even 640) per 2 week cycle to get access to the goonswarm wardec because its still a discount on the 500m a week they would otherwise be expected to pay.
But this isn't going to lead to a renaissance in merc profession with people paying X to professional mercs to join as a defensive ally. That won't come unless CCP deliver a wardec system that comes with teeth to gain a victory over an aggressor that produces an actual payout.
IF (for example) .... the Goonswarm vs SF war could be "won" by us for causing say (50b isk in total damage before they do 50b isk total damage to us) - and if that created a victory boon of 100b isk that came directly from the GS wallet to SF wallet when the war concluded. That would then introduce something that would revitalize the merc profession. It would be worth me hiring Noire mercs or some other effective professionals for X per week and split of the victory boon - because there would be something to actually win.
But without that kind of mechanic - sorry to tell you, but mercs are going to continue being the guys you hire to do things you don't want to do (like shooting structures for 20 hours).
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
By which I guess you guys acknowledge you have lost the actual discussion (again).
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2340
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: ... which is pretty much exactly what I said. I'm glad we agree.
What we disagree over is that the 1.1 change is in any way shape or form a positive progression on 1.0.
Ranger 1 wrote:These changes are a good first step, but there still needs to be iteration. As has been already pointed out there will be more tools inbound for tracking the record of and hiring of merc corps. These are necessary, as well as "victory conditions" as I (and then subsequently you) have already pointed out... but you have to start somewhere.
You do, but not by completely nerfing the defender's ability to defend in wars against a much larger opponent with any kind of financial equivilence. This change should really have gone back for internal review until such time they found a way to properly iterate on the wardec system because as it stands it does nothing for the merc industry, and everything to the advantage of large alliances wishing to involve themselves in consequence-free wardecs.
Ranger 1 wrote:Empowering the "privateers" of the EVE universe is not it... although the foolish will undoubtedly hire free rubish to fight for them. A culture needs to develop in the merc market where "you get what you pay for", but that isn't going to happen overnight. The groundwork needs to be laid first and be in effect for a while to become established.
Well but the 1.1 patches lays no groundwork whatsoever, it simply rips up the foundation of 1.0 and hides the consequence of this behind a spurious "eve isn't fair" figleaf without answering any of the questions the player base has raised.
Ranger 1 wrote:I understand that it steals a bit of your thunder, your move was actually very well executed under the original set of revisions (it was the smartest thing you could have done, all things considered). But it also served to very clearly point out to CCP that the EVE player base was indeed smart enough to take advantage and twist the system to suit their own needs, and that it would be necessary to take at least some of the additional steps they had already been considering.
Well there is a lot of discussion over whether this actually had anything to do with my "move" or not. Personally I think it is more likely to have been in reaction to the Honda Accord/Goomwarm/Test wardec thing that happened 3 weeks before. But really now, is Eve becoming a game where if the player base discovers ways to find methods of gaming systems effectively those methods should be removed? - I thought we were living in an emergent gaming sandbox where finding ways to bring Jita to a standstill with organized tornado/thrasher gankfieets are the order of the day.
This is the essential issue really that makes people wonder where the motivation for these changes came from.
It does look like its one law for the large 0.0 alliances and one law for everyone else.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2341
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:No more Jade Constantine tinfoil hat responses? Weaselior wrote:He's denied it repeatedly before, but keeps forgetting about the webarchive link. Once that comes out he stops denying it for a while and getting all quiet-like but in about a month he'll start denying it again. Ah, that would explain it. He cried wolf too loudly so now he has gone to hide in his digital ***** house chat channel and have his wounds licked by his sycophantic, hat wearing fanboi's.
I'm not exactly sure what your accusation is here?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2341
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:If the Goons are calling for an end to dogpiling on wardecs Not even. That's the funny part.
So who was calling for an end to dogpiling on large alliance wardecs really ?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2345
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:It's amazing how many times jade has been laughed at over his accusation that any 0.0 alliance would care about wardecs, and npc freighters explained to him, yet it's made no impression whatsoever.
Funny thing is its only really been 0.0 alliance pilots who have been doing "the laughing" (but nobody really believes them).
All we have to judge the reality of the situation is that tomorrow the mechanic is being nerfed into oblivion and 0.0 will not have to worry about it ever again.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2345
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
dontbanmebro wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:So who was calling for an end to dogpiling on large alliance wardecs really ? As the ultimate originator of this hilariously stupid shitstorm, why don`t you tell us.
Well the only people prepared to admit in public they wanted the 1.1 changes would appear to be BFF people on the wardec team. (well and Keldun of Eve Univsersity) I suggest you listen to the Crossing Zebra's podcast (ep six) to get a view of what the rest of the CSM thought of this specific 1.1 change.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2345
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
dontbanmebro wrote:Weaselior wrote:i notice jade has once again lied about the CSM by trying to claim they did not oppose the 1.0 situation, and confuse their advocacy for different systems that fixed the problem as opposing a fix to the problem
it is especially hilarious he smears the merc csm by claiming the merc csm agrees with him when the merc csm disagrees with the change because he wants one thats much more severe It would be doubly damning, then, if the chair of the csm actually posted decrying Jade`s claims as ridiculous and directly controvertible by verifiable facts. Oh wait...again...
Hmmm, I just read an interesting article about the chair of the CSM (and two step) over on lost in Eve. Linked from the discussion a pod cast there Two step has a nice little talk about wardec changes (around the 45.00 and 50.30 marks)
Still I'd advise people to go over and have a read, have a listen - and make up your own minds.
http://www.lostineve.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2346
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nastrado wrote: Nobody was. This all got blown out proportion because you once again feel slighted and have to try to seem relevant. You crave relevance and you decided to nail yourself to a cross that was not there for everyone to see. You wanted to be the martyr you wanted to be the hero you wanted to be important. Your desperate grabs for attention get worse and worse. You have not been relevant since well before you got kicked off the CSM.
But that isn't true. I've linked a podcast where two step specifically cites how unfair he believes it is on the large 0.0 alliances that hisec raider corps can gang up on them in Inferno 1.0.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2346
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I've linked a podcast where two step specifically cites how unfair he believes it is on the large 0.0 alliances that hisec raider corps can gang up on them in Inferno 1.0. it's a shame that two step isn't in goonswarm or in any 0.0 alliance then, isn't it? so much for your smoking gun l0l
Well he was your chosen replacement for Mittani you know. One has to assume you guys have a line of communication so that your desires for game development priority can be taken to the summit. All I am saying is that pre summit Two Step goes on record saying that he thinks the dogpile mechanic needs to be changed because its "unfair" on 0.0 alliances. And he's very much "your guy" - its easy to dig up plenty of posts with Goonswarm saying he should have been the new chair and Mittani endorsing him.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2346
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote:Triumvirate mark 7 (Northern Coalition DOT) is more of a credible threat than Jade Constantine. Consider this. They've disbanded, reformed, lost their space, and come back 7 times. Most of the time they just shoot our jump bridges and passive-aggressively SBU our systems (they don't really mean it, you see, OTEC is best of all of us), but at the end of the day, they can actually regularly field roaming gangs that come through Deklein, kill a few people, and then get home, losing a few stragglers.
Their posting is terrible. Their alliance contains remnants of BoB, including LadyScarlet, so you know they're quality. Their renters pay exorbitant fees for terrible constellations which they barely bother to protect. They are still more of a credible threat to the CFC than you, Jade, because they at least can form a fleet, take space, and play the game.
Goonswarm has been declaring war and had war declared on it since its re-formation in 2010 (thanks, Kartoon). Our war history is public record. Spend a few minutes, scroll through the history, and marvel at all the people we've been at war with. Your 38 added wardecs are a few drops in a rather large bucket, of which we've filled maybe half ourselves.
Everything I've stated in this post is public information, easily accessible through EVE's in game interface, or dotlan's API history (or, you could even use the wonderful influence.png). All you have is insinuation and statements so thin and vague that you refuse to even make them.
Stop posting.
We actually have a much better wardec history than you guys.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2346
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:19:00 -
[35] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:When are you going to get that WE DO NOT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ALL THE WAR DECS EVER. It does NOT hurt us. AT ALL. In ANY WAY. It might hurt a few idiots a week. They deserve it, it's funny, and they'll bounce back. We're not losing space, we're not losing our trillion isk a month moongoo, we're not having our assets locked in stations. We're not losing supers.
If you want highsec to fight back, form an alliance, and go on a roam. I know that traveling through multiple regions might seem scary, but I promise it's fun.
It hurts you in the most profound way possible. It hurts the feelings and ego of your leader. All the isk in the world won't make up for the sting when it becomes apparent that the Mittani lost a war to Jade Constantine and needed the 1.0 game mechanics to change in order to protect him from the consequences of defeat. This is fact, public record, simply the way things are.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2347
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
There are some pretty extraordinary responses to what is a very simple debate about game mechanics. I do wish everyone involved on the other side would take a moment to go have brew a nice cup of tea and calm down a little before continuing. Perhaps have one's significant other have a read of the things you've been posting to bring a second opinion before carrying on.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2347
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote:
I'd prefer you actually respond to anything anyone posts...
Well I'm obviously not going to respond to clumsy trolling. And since I generally respond substantively only to those people bringing some actual adult discussion to the table, its not greatly surprising that the last few pages has had me talking seriously to one other guy. As I said, calm down, stop the personal attacks, stop trying to understand another player when you know precisely nothing about their life - and generally keep to the point.
Then we can have a discussion.
But you are going to need to understand there is more than one way to play Eve online and what is a triumph of collective effort in the interests of the "great leader" for you guys can sound just like the buzzing of the hive to others.
I do consider being the greatest enemy of the goons to be one of my finest achievements in this game. And winning a war against you guys puts the icing on the cake.
So please excuse me some moments of gratuitous self-satisfaction.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2347
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote: I'll keep this simple - weaselior is one of our directors. He's repeatedly asked for you to demonstrate some form of concrete proof that you're hurting us at all. He's also posted our monthly technetium income as a formula on this forum, so if you use the few billion ISK damage we don't reimburse as 'proof', that's fairly easily refuted. Same for posting war record losses - Goonfleet has lost plenty of actual 0.0 wars, let alone empire wars, by the 'isk war' metric, and other, more tangible metrics (taking space, causing opponents to collapse).
Yes but so easily you forget the "humiliation of the great leader" metric which can be measured in knuckleposting tweets. This is obviously not a war that has anything to do with isk otherwise I suspect I wouldn't have been able to earn 8.7 billion isk in 4 days while being hunted by the "ministry of love" in their 3 stealth bombers.
You are collectively "hurt" when "pubbies" laugh at you. "pubbies" have been laughing at you.
Hence you do kinda lose.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2347
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
Weaselior wrote: I don't think angryposting up a storm in multiple threads complaining about your exploit being nerfed and being so angry you write an article that is long pointless and crazy even by en24 standards qualifies as laughing, but see above re: believing own propaganda
Thats because you lack the objectivity to look from behind the goon-coloured shades Weaselor - public opinion is profoundly against the 1.1 wardec changes and considers the Goons (and TEST) were very much reaping what they sowed with the hisec dogpile. Now the mechanic is changing to your benefit you will never again have much credibility telling hisec to "come at me bro" because the answer for the rest of eve's history will be a link to the 1.1 patch notes.
For the record the Eve News article responses are general positive - people quite liked to hear a version of events that was not biased in the CFC favour.
I do understand how it gets frustrating to be in a jabber channel where everyone is saying "omg omg omg jade is so wrong omg" 24/7 and then wondering why the rest of the world doesn't seem to agree with you why. But thats common to cult experience through 20th century history.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Thats because you lack the objectivity to look from behind the goon-coloured shades Weaselor - public opinion is profoundly against the 1.1 wardec changes and considers the Goons (and TEST) were very much reaping what they sowed with the hisec dogpile. Now the mechanic is changing to your benefit you will never again have much credibility telling hisec to "come at me bro" because the answer for the rest of eve's history will be a link to the 1.1 patch notes.
We'll merely have to agree to disagree, as your reality and the reality of everyone else posting in this thread are irreconcilable. I congratulate you on having the mental toughness to maintain your own reality, and wish you all the best in your future endevors.
I'm sure you made a small error in your posting there and by "everyone else" meant "CFC posters" right. Because your support from any actual independents is vanishingly small.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:This thread is out of control.
I think its turned into a war between goonswarm posters and the mod team as to whether bad posters are allowed to ignore the forum rules. Hopefully the mods will win.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I'm sure you made a small error in your posting there and by "everyone else" meant "CFC posters" right. Because your support from any actual independents is vanishingly small.
I guess that's true if you assume that everyone who's not of your opinion is actually a CFC alt
well aren't they?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Guys, before this goes on any further, kindly take off the hats and get real - we do not develop with one corp or alliance in mind... CCP SoniClover wrote:Regarding the war dec system changes being some goonswarm conspiracy - all of these changes were decided (and most implemented) long before this particular goonswarm war even started. Do you really think we add new stuff a few days before a release just because of one war?
Regarding defenders now being defenseless, etc. This change will make it a little bit more difficult to defend, but what we have to do is strike a balance between defender options and incentives to declare war. We can give defenders all kinds of shiny new tools to defend themselves, but if they result in nobody declaring war anymore, then why bother? Yes, we want the system as a whole to have more consequences, but that cuts both ways. it's amazing that despite two devposts blatantly shooting your conspiracy theory out of the air, you're still pushing it don't you feel bad
Well thats a strawman argument you are attempting there young man. And lucky for you that you managed to avoid including my (and other) response(s) to SoniClover on that subject where it was immediately pointed out that the Honda Accord wardec predated the SF dec by 3 weeks or so and could possibily have been considered to have influenced their thinking. Add to this the podcast I linked you all earlier that had Two Step speaking of how terrible it was that large alliances were getting dogpiled by hisec on the run up to the CSM summit in Iceland and your contention here falls apart like a boat made of marshmellow on an unkind sea.
Further of course, MANY players disagreed with what Soniclover writes in your quote - and its quite apparent that the system as a whole as updated for 1.1 is not "cutting both ways" but simply making it easier for 0.0 alliances to wardec who they please while removing the consequences of that decision in defensive ally formations.
All in all, these are not devquotes that do much for your argument.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:41:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote: Jade, I think you should stop posting. I wouldn't want you to get banned for accusing the entire CSM of being CFC alts, or for repeatedly posting unfounded rumors of a conspiracy between Goonswarm and CCP to enact the 1.1 war system changes.
Lucky I'm not doing those things really. So please stop trying to leverage forum rules to silence dissenting opinions. At some level you need to accept that other players have differing outlooks on the game and to be prepared to discuss these things without continual recourse to personal attacks and slander.
Kyle Myr wrote: For what it's worth, the advice I gave Issler above would work very well for you as well - simply split your alliance into many small corporations, whereupon it will become prohibitively expensive to wardec you, and every wardec you receive can be returned four-fold for the low price of a flat 70 million ISK. You could even revive La Maison as an altcorp!
That would be my advise to Goonswarm as well. If you split up your alliance you could be protected from the consequence of high sec raiding corp dogpile without needing to advocate a complete nerfing of the defensive ally system.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
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Posted - 2012.06.18 20:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I'm sure you made a small error in your posting there and by "everyone else" meant "CFC posters" right. Because your support from any actual independents is vanishingly small.
I guess that's true if you assume that everyone who's not of your opinion is actually a CFC alt well aren't they? Citation needed. A lot of citations, actually, because there's a lot of people that disagree with you.
Well tbh there aren't - and certainly not in this thread.
I have been debating with goonswarm/CFC coalition people almost exclusively and the one or two without those tags (or posting in an NPC corp like some of your number) have generally been happy to be identified on the CFC side of the argument.
Most notably - nobody from a hisec wardec corp has posted on your side of the argument. So you are in the position of supporting a nerf to a game system that impacts hisec (while claiming it does nothing to you) and thats dog-in-the-mangerism in its purest form.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:what I'm trying to say is do you see a problem with that logic
I see a problem with you leaving out the line above.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Most notably - nobody from a hisec wardec corp has posted on your side of the argument. Alekseyev Karrde wrote:The "merc tailored" option Soundwave referenced that I pushed for was a cap on allies (2-3 would have been nice) but you would not have any cost for taking them. If you wanted to hire a merc, you could at whatever price you negotiated. If you wanted to bring friends in, you could do it for free. If you wanted to accept free help from strangers (or strangers that buy in to your war dec) you could do that too, or any combination of the three. I feel this would have restored the merc market (the real one, not the Inferno mechanic) close to where it was before Inferno while not further unleveling the playing field between the big guys and the little guys. Noirdot are well-known CFC members of course
Well leaving aside the deceiful argumentation - forgetting "in this thread" - the reality is that Karrde is not on your side of the argument - he's on his own if anything. He opposed the 1.1 changes as he makes clear on the Crossing Zebra's podcast I linked you earlier where he expresses his great dissatisfaction with the team BFF developers on the issue.
You really are not very good at this.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2350
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Well leaving aside the deceiful argumentation - forgetting "in this thread" - the reality is that Karrde is not on your side of the argument - he's on his own if anything. He opposed the 1.1 changes as he makes clear on the Crossing Zebra's podcast I linked you earlier where he expresses his great dissatisfaction with the team BFF developers on the issue.
You really are not very good at this.
my argument is "goonswarm doesn't give a flying **** about wardecs" his argument is "the number of allies should be hard-capped" obviously two completely separate and unrelated arguments, but neither of which you're in a position to agree with
My argument is that he doesn't support the 1.1 change and nor does anyone else much outside the CFC.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
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